Ok, I am going to go over this one more time. Spurred on by yet another Twitter discussion. Parties can out themselves here if they so desire.
No one is trying to demonize honestly awkward dudes of any age with the phrase “Nice Guy ™.” “Nice Guys” aren’t actually awkward. They generally know exactly what they’re doing. And we call them “nice guys” because that’s what they call themselves. If you have issues with this label, then perhaps you should take that up with the douchebags who are co-opting the title, instead of the women who are calling them out on their bad behavior.
The “Nice Guy ™” thing stems from men who think that they can “earn” sex by pretending to be “nice” or pretending to be friends with the objects of their affection. The reason that we call them “Nice Guys” is because that’s how they self-identify. And it’s a warning sign that they aren’t actually nice, because actual nice people don’t have to tell you they’re nice, you’ll figure it out on your own. There are two main types of these: The guys who are quietly your “friend” and hope some day you’ll give in to their quiet pressure, best characterized in this XKCD strip. The other type are the ones who DO hit on you openly, and when you initially turn them down, come back with, “But I’m a Nice Guy.” However, shoot them down again and that facade drops quickly, “Didn’t want to fuck you anyway, fat, ugly, cunt.”
But in a twist what I’d like to talk to you about this time is what this shit does to the girls and women (or anyone else) that “Nice Guys” prey on.
Now the second type of guy, while he can hurt your feelings, is usually pretty easy to get over. A snarled, “Fuck off, dickhead,” usually gets rid of them pretty quick. They can escalate into drink-throwing or physical violence, but mostly not.
The first type of guy, however, can be a devastating lesson in how much of society views women as objects and not people. Sometimes these guys will come on to you, and then pretend to be your friend afterwards until they think they’ve built up enough “points” to have earned sex, and sometimes they don’t ever come on to you and then pretend to be your friend until they think they’ve built enough points to have earned sex. When they do make their “decisive” move, and you turn them down, or if you get a new boyfriend or engaged, you will frequently be subject to a catalog of everything they have ever done for you, as an explanation for why you owe them sex, or why you’re a worthless cunt who “led them on and toyed with their feelings.”
I cannot even describe to you what it feels like to find out someone you trusted doesn’t actually view you as a friend, or even a person.
It really is one of the worst feelings in the world. You trusted this person with your secrets, your feelings, and then they turn around and tell you that all they saw those things as were obstacles to navigate in pursuit of the pussy.
Now, one of the reasons I bring this up here is because Nerd Culture has more than it’s fair share of “nice guys.” And it also has a lot of girls who think that they have to put up with this shit, or who feel that it’s their fault, because they should be grateful for any male attention if they aren’t conventionally attractive.
This is unequivocally, absolutely bullshit.
I’m about to tell you why, and this is something I talk about during my Health At Every Size panels: Beauty is Subjective. There is no rational, objective standard of beauty. Everyone has different things they find attractive. I go absolutely gaga over Tom Hiddleston, my sister thinks he’s too skinny and unattractive, but finds Vincent D’Onofrio to be the epitome of attractiveness. Some people like short, chubby people, some people like tall, slender people or any combination thereof. No one person is the arbiter of attractiveness.
So, no, you do not need to be grateful for any attention someone of your preferred gender shows you. Nor do you have to put up with emotionally manipulative, dishonest, bullshit in the guise of “friendship.” If someone is your friend, they will want you to be happy whether that includes putting out for them or not. If they have feelings for you, will they be disappointed if you wind up with someone else? Well, yeah. They’re only human. Happens to everyone. We all don’t always get who and what we want. Grown ups, however, do not deliver a catalog of everything they’ve ever “done for you, you ungrateful whore!” at peak volume in a hotel lobby. I’m just saying.*
Basically, what I’m here to tell you guys is that being “nice” to someone is not a payment you make for sex. You cannot be “nice” enough to deserve sex. No one deserves sex. In the words of @NaughtyNerdy from twitter: “Girls are not machines that you put Kindness Coins into until sex falls out.”
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I think this also ties to the relationship between faux Nice Guys and Chubsters. I have seen the NG about face “I didnt want to sleep with you any way” and it finish with “because you are too fat for me anyway”. Friendship coins are worth less if the woman is perceived to be less desirable . I am sure there is an equation I could come up with with the base level of attraction and variables!
I do talk about that a bit, about how we (fat girls) are expected to put up with this shit because we should be grateful anyone wants us. Which is patently untrue, and anyone promulgating that crap should be horsewhipped.
Ok, so we have “Bad boys” who go out and party and drink, etc. We all agree on what they mean. Also, I agree that assholes have co-opted “Nice Guy™ “. So what does a guy who’s typical Friday night involves a book or video game, and isn’t really interested in one night stands call themselves? Aside from boring I mean.
How about a good human being? There are plenty of girls whose idea of a fun Friday night also involves staying in with a book or a video game. Also, many more women are less interested in one night stands than dudes as a matter of cultural conditioning.
The secret is to meet women in places where you’re doing things you love, like comic, gaming or bookstores, and treat them like human beings. Also, be honest about your feelings.
My “nice guy” who I’d known for years, and who when I got engaged to the GHWR screamed at me in a crowded hotel lobby had never asked for my phone number, never asked me out for coffee, never asked if I wanted to get a drink in the bar… We would run into each other at cons, and then talk about books for a while, then I’d run off to the dance with my friends, and I wouldn’t see him until the next con a couple months later. The idea that I was supposed to divine from conversations about nothing but literature that he viewed me as his soul mate and one true love is fucking ridiculous.
You have to be up front and honest. And yeah, you’re gonna get rejected, probably more often than not. Everyone gets rejected more often than not. And it sucks. But lick your wounds and do it again. That’s what guys who are successful with women do. NOT WITH THE SAME WOMAN, though.
Seriously, my friend Nate dates the most amazing women, gorgeous, funny, smart… Nate does NOT look like George Clooney, Ryan Reynolds, Tom Hiddleston or any other hottie out there. He’s in his 40s, balding and fat. But he treats women like they’re people, and approaches women he finds attractive and it works. Same goes for my buddy Matt. Tons of dudes who have never SEEN the inside of a gym get laid and have relationships with people they want to have relationships with… mostly because they treat them, at least initially, like they do when they first make friends with other dudes. You know, like people.
Thanks for the reply. I was thinking of more of a nomenclature term; I’m not actually looking for a relationship right now (I know, someone in their twenties who is single and not desperate for either sex or romance? BLASPHEMY!) as I’m planning a big move, and have a very close relative with cancer I’m looking after, so yeah, I have other things on my plate.
Anyway, I was thinking of a term. I’m the local shoulder among my friends (Why they come to the Asperger’s guy with the least dating experience in our group is beyond me.) and a few years ago a couple of my friends went through a period where they would date party boys (You know, guys who’s main occupation after school was going to parties and drinking. Engineering students who live up to every ‘work hard and party hard’ sterotype about them there is) then come to me that their boyfreinds never had any time for them as they were out partying. At the time suggested they date partyboys less, and date nice guys, but it obvious I can’t use that term anymore as it is tainted. I like having terms for things, so I was wondering if you could suggest an untained alternative for when I’m talking to someone and need to communicate a concept.
Sadly, yeah, the term is tainted now by the guys who have co-opted it. I would just suggest maybe, “guys who party less.” That works. I mean, if the partying is the problem. Or whatever. Focusing on the specific issue is always the best way to go. Nebulous descriptions lead to miscommunication and misunderstanding.